Andre: Hey, friends. You're listening to the Hope & Hard Pills Podcast where we are exploring practical insight about anti-racism and social change.
Andre: Joining me from North Carolina is my co-host Alicia, and I guess I should introduce myself.
Alicia: Hey, y'all.
Andre: I'm Andre Henry if you've never listened to this before, and I want to start by telling you a story, Alicia. Are you ready?
Alicia: Go for it.
Andre: Okay. Sometimes when I'm online, I like to just kind of troll the trolls. One day, this guy, he had been following me for a little bit and he kept talking in some other language. Not an official language like Spanish or something, but he was speaking in some kind of code, some kind of jargon that I didn't understand about race and racism. He basically came at me for being too playful online about talking about racism. It was something like, "You're out here making jokes, and people are dying," or something. In response, I just found all the pictures of civil rights leaders that I could smiling and laughing, and just started posting them in a thread in response to his comment, and then I muted him.
Alicia: I think I remember when this happened.
Andre: Oh, did you see that?
Alicia: I'm fairly sure I did.
Alicia: I know our listeners are probably wondering, what does this have to do with this week's show, and knowing Andre I could give some insights into this. So this week we will be speaking about pleasure and more specifically pleasure [inaudible 00:02:05]. I'm guessing you told me this story because it gave you some degree of joy, to connect these historical examples of people experiencing pleasure and joy in the midst of some really difficult work as a means of trolling this random guy on the internet.
Andre: Well, I wanted to challenge in that moment that I did it, the idea that activism has to be, and our justice work, however you want to talk about it, because not everybody likes the term activism, but that it doesn't have to be this serious thing all the time. In fact, I think that it'll burn us out if we don't. For me, there has to be space for playfulness and humor and all that. It made me think about the conversation that we're sharing with people today because this is what Adrienne Maree Brown's book is about. It's about pleasure activism.
Alicia: Awesome. Well, I am super excited about this conversation. I'm just generally excited about Adrienne Maree Brown. So for those of y'all who don't know, Adrienne Maree Brown is a writer, activist, organizer, just brilliant human being who is the author of the new book, Pleasure Activism. She's also written Emergent Strategy in the past and is doing some really generative work around how we approach justice seeking and social transformation in the world. So this week we were super, super lucky to have her on the show. Andre did this incredible interview with her. It seems like y'all had a really fun time and conversation.
Andre: We had so much fun.
Alicia: It sounded like it. It sounded like it. I am so excited for our listeners to hear why y'all got into conversation about, so maybe it's a good time for us to get into this interview.
Andre: Hi, Adrienne.
adrienne: Hi, how are you?
Andre: I'm doing really great. How are you doing today?
adrienne: I'm doing good. I'm doing good. I had a relaxing weekend.
Andre: Awesome. Awesome. I'm really honored to have you on the show.
adrienne: Wow. Thank you. I really appreciate y'all having me here.
Andre: Yeah, so obviously we want to talk about your work and all of that and I thought it'd be great to start with your new book, Pleasure Activism, and I wondered if you could tell us what does that mean to you? What does it mean to be a pleasure activist?
adrienne: I think that there's maybe five or six different definitions in the book, but the main part of it for me is that it's people who are working to make justice and liberation among the most pleasurable experiences we can have.
Andre: You mention in the book that you have a practice of pleasure, and I wonder if you could tell us what does that look like for you?
adrienne: Oh yeah. I have so many practices of pleasure, but I feel like in general, I wake up each day trying to make my day one of the most pleasurable days of my life.
adrienne: I work hard to bring pleasure into the experiences that I have with everyone that I interact with. I also use my enjoyment, my pleasure, of something to help me determine if something's not actually the right move or where I'm supposed to be. So sometimes you get that feeling, I think people get it in their gut or somewhere else, or it's like a restlessness or just an energy that's like, "Oh, this isn't what I'm meant to be doing in this moment." I try to pay a lot of attention to those things. Yeah.
Andre: Yeah. It makes me think of the phrase that you use, which I really love, in the book. The orgasmic yes.
adrienne: Yes. It really helps. To me this whole idea is that we have a technology, an internal technology, that tells us when we're enjoying something and it's all kinds of different small internal metrics. My breath will quicken, my heart will start to pound a little faster. I feel that aliveliness. When you're having a great conversation or when you're having a great orgasm, you're just like, "Oh, yes. Now I'm fully alive. I'm a fully miraculous being." I'm like, "Well, why wouldn't you want to bring that kind of energy to the things that you spend your day doing?" Right? Then why wouldn't we want to spend that kind of energy on being in a right relationship with each other.
Andre: Yeah. That's profound. What showed you the necessity of practicing pleasure? Was there a shift in your life where you're like, "Listen, I've got to do things differently", or have you always been a pleasure activist?
adrienne: Oh, this is actually a kind of a deep question, Andre. [crosstalk 00:07:32] Because I feel like as you ... So I think that everyone has this potential. I think we're all wired towards pleasure and I think I'm no different. If I look back, I have early memories of being wired for pleasure, wired for enjoying life, and then I feel like trauma comes along and I think there's so many different kinds of trauma people experience. A lot of it is based on identity. A lot of it is based on power struggles. But then you get to a certain point where you're supposed to be an adult and you've lost touch with pleasure. I feel like almost every adult I know is like, "I want pleasure in my life. I'd like more pleasure in my life", and either time or trauma or loneliness or [inaudible 00:00:08:20]. There's all these things that kind of become a blockade between us and the pleasure that we want to have and we're meant to have.
adrienne: So then I think there's a choice. So for me, I feel like being suicidal was actually the thing, although it's an extreme way and I hope everyone else doesn't have to go all the way there. But I do think there was a feeling of like, "I don't know that I really want to be here anymore", and then the question that people ask you when you're feeling that way, or some people might ask you, is like, "Well, what would make you want to be here?" I feel like for me the answer to that question was like, "I want to enjoy my life. Completely enjoy my life." What I have learned is I can't just enjoy it on my own. It has to be I want to enjoy my life and be increasing the way that other people can enjoy life.
adrienne: I think that's one of the distinctions, maybe, is ... I think a lot of times when you think about distinctions between feminism and black feminism or feminism and intersectional feminism. It's not enough to ever have something just off on your own or that can be enough for very privileged people who've lost touch with other humans. But for those of us who are still living amongst each other, right, there's a way that it's like, "Oh I can feel it if other people around me are being repressed or oppressed away from their natural pleasure center and it really detracts from my pleasure." I don't think pleasure functions in that hierarchical way. I get more pleasure if you're not getting any.
Andre: Right, right, right. Yeah.
adrienne: Yeah. [crosstalk 00:10:05]
Andre: That is really deep and I just want to pause and say thank you for sharing that. It's really generous of you to share that much of your story with us in that way.
adrienne: It's interesting. I feel like so much of what we need to learn about pleasure is on the other side of telling more honest truths about ourselves. I feel like so much of the way that our repression ... I think of repression really deeply. So much of that functions because we think we're alone. Almost every time I've been like, "Ugh, I'm such a weirdo. I'm the only one who desires this, I'm the only one who thinks like this." It's just meant that I haven't found my people yet. There's always some other people who are like, "Oh, yeah, I'd like to play in that particular way", or "I'd like to feel that free", or "I'd like to go to the bath house" or whatever it is. There's always someone out there and [crosstalk 00:11:09] like, "Oh, how much am I stifling my own ecstatic life because I'm scared of saying the truth of what I desire?"
Andre: Yeah. As you were talking about that I thought about my own life as an activist and the times when just being in the world has felt exhausting.
Andre: Where it feels like, "Okay, I can't keep doing it this way."
Andre: So when you talk about making justice or justice work or liberation work or whatever you want to call it, making it the most pleasurable experience, and even though I have the book and I'm making my way through it, there's a part of me that goes ... and I know there are a lot of people listening and going like, "How in the world?"
adrienne: I know. I mean, I still feel that way myself. I laugh about this because I think I often create books or projects or ideas based around a question that I'm really sitting with and wanting to give myself permission and room to explore. One way you get permission to explore things in this society is if you become a scholar of that thing, right? All of a sudden it's like, "Well, if I'm a scholar then people will send me pornographic material and I can study it." Right? That's literally what's happened is I'm like, I really want to understand what makes people turn towards something, move towards something, feel authentic, longing for something. Because I think that if we're going to create the kind of magnificent change that we know needs to happen in our society, we're going to have to have some longing. I think we've tried all the other strategies. We tried like, "We'll educate people and then they'll know." Right? "We will terrify people and then they'll change. We will change people and then that'll do it."
adrienne: "We'll expose and make fun of people for being so stupid that they would waste the only planet they have and that'll surely do it." None of that has worked. We've tried these methods. They temporarily might adjust behaviors so that people can be socially acceptable for a short period of time. But eventually that's what we realized about the true oligarchs, the true billionaires, the true have population, that upper echelon, is they don't care what we think and they don't care what their grandchildren think. They don't care [inaudible 00:13:37]. They just think about, "How can I have the most right now and that somehow I'll be able to make a way." It's a very short term and very destructive way of thinking. So for me, I'm always like, "Okay, well what would have to counter that?", and if we've tried all these other strategies and we've tried guilt and shame and all this stuff, then I think pleasure deserves a chance.
adrienne: So far in the organizing communities that I've been a part of, there's a part of us that likes to brag about how much we're hard workers and struggling and overdoing it, but there's also a part of what brings us back that is about the pleasure of community and the pleasure of the belonging and wanting ... There's nothing like the feeling of political home and feeling like, "Oh, this place gets me, longs for me, wanted me, carved out space for me, allows me to be exactly who I am." I think if we can start to study what are the pleasures of that? Oh, it has to be authentic. I can't just be using these people and manipulating them to be numbers for my purpose. I have to actually care about would they care about. I have to actually be in community.
adrienne: It's a different invitation. Maybe it's a harder invitation. I'm not sure yet. I think time will tell. What did you think of it, Andre?
Andre: What do I think of it?
adrienne: Yeah. What do you think of pleasure as a way of entering into these conversations about movement?
Andre: Yeah. You know what? I'm really glad that you asked me that.
adrienne: Yeah. I remember well. I already know what I think about it.
Andre: Yeah. You are the first guest that has been like, "What do you think, Andre?"
adrienne: Yeah. [inaudible 00:15:32].
Andre: Yeah. Well, so I thought about this actually as I prepared for our conversation and thought, I grew up in church and that's my roots. So something that makes me think about this, though, is actually the story of the Garden of Eden.
adrienne: Ooh. Okay.
Andre: Because I got very upset with my church upbringing when I found out that the word Eden is a Hebrew word for pleasure.
Andre: Not only that, but it comes from this whole tradition of storytelling in the ancient Near East where they believed that the gods would ... they had their own gardens that they would enjoy for themselves. So in this story in Genesis One, it's told as though God builds a temple and in Genesis Two you have this garden of pleasure that any original hearer would have assumed belonged to God, God self and that God will be enjoying ... But then God gives it to the humans.
adrienne: Yes. [inaudible 00:16:44]
Andre: So it's made me think about justice work as the reason that we aim through the target when we do justice work because ultimately the thing on the other side of the work is that garden.
adrienne: That's right. That's right.
Andre: In some ways we're trying to open that garden to everyone, right? We're saying it's not fair that only the billionaires get to eat from these trees or whatever. We need everyone. Everyone has the right to be here. Everyone deserves to be here.
adrienne: There's an abundance.
adrienne: That myth of scarcity. Because to carry the garden narrative, the garden story, it's not like the garden became in any way less, right? It's not like we were picked out because we were over running the garden or anything like that. It's this relationship to shame. One of the things that always makes me think shame is a manmade concept because it works so well as a control concept. If you can get people to feel so ashamed of our nature, then you can kind of always control us because the nature is not going to change. It hasn't been [inaudible 00:18:06]. Since the beginning of time, humans have wanted to have sex and alter our states and [crosstalk 00:18:13] from the garden and play with our kids outside, run around.
adrienne: I mean, all these pleasures because that has been an important thing for me to uncover with people, is a lot of times when I say pleasure people go all the way to like sex dungeon. [inaudible 00:18:34] because I was just like, "Wow. Well, you know. Hmm." [inaudible 00:18:41] I'm just like, "Gosh, that's the first thing you think of when I say pleasure." It's like the most elicit, the most taboo pleasure. Which I do encourage because I'm those taboos are taboos for a reason. There's a lot of pleasurable release available when you reclaim those things which you're told you're not allowed to have. They're [crosstalk 00:19:03] in our society that it feels very rooted in how we practice religion. It is about the forbidden and HOW the forbidden then becomes the thing we most desire, and the more you can't have it, the more you desire and that becomes this whole own thing.
adrienne: It's interesting because I think some people ... I almost think of that as a phase of sexual development. I think a lot of people get stuck there because they get stuck in repressive relationships. You can get in a path where it's like, "Oh, my whole relationship is a scarcity based relationship", where I think I own the other person. I never get enough of their attention. I never get enough of their touch. I never got enough of their love. We play games to kind of reinforce all that, not enough, not enough, not enoughness. Then what we desire ends up getting tucked into these places. They're not necessarily healthy. It wouldn't feel right in the light, and then you just create a vicious cycle where it's like now there's a deep scarcity in your relationship because you're thinking about ownership rather than telling each other about what you long for.
adrienne: Then the thing you long for is always out of reach and the person next to you could be the thing you longed for, but you'll never know because you don't not have that conversation. Because that's what you actually desire. So much of pleasure activism right now is trying to get how do we learn to speak about our desires in real time and how do we move towards what we long for? Then how do we use the skill set that we build with that to actually have those kinds of conversations about things are not sexual or not related, but related to other aspects of justice, other kinds of boundaries?
Andre: Yeah. Actually one of my questions as I was preparing for this is ... Okay, so here's something kind of funny about just the book. I've had the book for a few weeks now.
Andre: I did not notice that on the co on the cover that it's like all animals having sex.
adrienne: You didn't even notice that?
Andre: I didn't notice it until this morning.
adrienne: [inaudible 00:21:17] on the cover.
Andre: I don't know.
adrienne: It's like a pattern.
Andre: Yeah, I just saw a pattern, which is really funny and I don't know what it says about me that I didn't notice until this morning.
adrienne: I mean, it's [inaudible 00:21:31] subtle. My mind is not in the gutter, maybe. I don't know. [inaudible 00:21:39] I would take it as a great thing. You're still available for surprise.
Andre: So I'm looking at it and I ... because one thing is when you just flip it open, for those who are going to read it, when you just flip it, you see that sexuality is a huge part of it, but it's more than that too. There's the chapter that you begin writing while you've had some some weed, which is one of my favorite parts of any book ever. So it's just like, "Hey, I'm kind of high right now and I'm just going to go with it."
adrienne: I've always [inaudible 00:22:14], and it's still something I want to go further with, is actually speaking from the altered state, whatever that is. It's very interesting to me and I think there's a lot of ways that it ends up going badly. I've seen stuff where people are like, "Yeah man, we're just high", and it's like a lot of things can happen when you're high. Some people get very reductionist with their humor and their view and some people get very expensive and some drugs have different things. But there's thoughts that I've had while I was on mushrooms that I was like, "God, I really wish that I could communicate this out to the other people", and the only way I would ever even imagine that being possible is visually. But then there's people who are so scared to actually alter their state who I'm like, "You would really benefit from some of the reality that's not normally available if you let go of of the control, the myth of control that you have right now." Anyway. Yeah. But I'm glad you liked that part. [crosstalk 00:23:19]
Andre: I think it's just that as ... I read there's a bunch about sex and then there's also something about the radical politics of drugs. I can't remember exactly how it's worded.
adrienne: Something like that.
Andre: The chapter about Beyonce. I'm saying, yeah, the way that you're talking about pleasure, it's robust.
adrienne: Thank you. Thank you.
Andre: I think one question that people will obviously have is how do you maintain this as a part of your wholeness and not just escaping the realities of watching the news or something like that?
adrienne: Yeah, that's great. I mean, first of all, I think it's okay to escape sometimes and I actually think we need to give ourselves a little bit more permission to do so, especially when times are really, really rough. There's an essay in there or an interview in there that's with the current executive director of the Harm Reduction Coalition. Harm Reduction Society. Anyway, the Harm Reduction Coalition, and I love that interview and I love the politics of harm reduction because one of the first things it says is, "Let's not deny that we are living in a really traumatic and hard time." So the idea that everyone should just be able to somehow sustain a sober, up beat energy through all of that is actually ... it's hard. All the people in my life who have chosen sobriety, who find that it does not work for them to dabble or to try moderation or other methodologies, it's like this is hard and it's hard for the rest of my life. I'm making the commitment for this to be hard.
adrienne: I think we don't acknowledge that enough and it's actually not easy, especially if you're drawn to that and especially if life is really difficult. It's not easy. So the first piece is, I always say I think sometimes it's okay to escape. I know I had just spent an entire weekend where I was like, "I need this to be a solo weekend." I need to escape from the news and from incoming texts and from whatever anyone else needs from me right now. I just need a couple of days off of humans. I think that's important sometimes, but then I think the other piece of it is, to me a lot of this is that it's important to actually be reminded of why we want to be alive and what it is we're fight for.
adrienne: What is it that we're trying to bring about? I think that we take the risk ... if we never give ourselves [inaudible 00:26:02] time that is dedicated to pleasure, I think we take the risk of forgetting what it is we're fighting for and beginning to think that our identity is just our depressed place. It's just an oppressed place, it's just the way that someone else's social system has determined that I am a less than human being and kind of fight against that. So you can start to ... I see us do this all the time. We end up claiming victories that are not actually tied to what we really want and need because we're just so worn down and we kind of lose our sense of what is it we were actually fighting for anyway? We end up fully on the defense. There's just all this stuff that can happen that I think shifts if you're actually in touch with what makes you feel alive.
adrienne: So one of the things I think that comes out in the drugs chapter, but also there's a piece about excess. There's a piece about over indulgence. For me, a lot of that is there's a difference between being high and being numb. There's a difference between feeling pleasure and being numb. There's a difference between feeling deeply alive and feeling numb. I think, again, to me, this is the drug and sex education that all young people should receive. There are substances in the world and some of them are really lovely and some of them might be great for you and you really want to understand what they are and what they do and what it is that you're longing for. Y.
adrienne: I remember the first time I went to Amsterdam, or the first time I went as an adult. The very first time I went I was with my family and I didn't do any drugs. But when I went back as an adult, I remember going with my then lover into a dispensary and they had someone who was basically a weed bartender. I was able to describe to them, "Here's how I would like to feel. Really alert and just relaxed and happy." They were able to tell me like, "Oh, here's this specific strain that does exactly that", and were you able to sell me exactly that and that's exactly how I felt. I could walk around Amsterdam and have a beautiful experience and be very alert, very alive. Basically just have a heightened experience of reality and it was amazing.
adrienne: Then to come back to the U.S and be like, "Oh". Because we have not had this as a legalized substance, because it's all been underground forever and because so many people had been punished for trying to bring us this medicine, we ended up with subpar quality. We end up the [inaudible 00:28:53], the shitty weed. It's like kitty litter stuff or oregano or whatever. When I lived in New York, there's definitely some times when I'm like, "This is like 80% oregano." [crosstalk 00:29:11] Anyway. It was just the power of being in a place that was at least temporarily really free where we were open to the fact that what they were selling was a medicine and so you would be able to adjust your dose and actually have the experience you want. It was really exciting to to be like, "Oh, that's possible." So then again, I think who benefits from us only having access to medicine that makes us really numb? How come we're being flooded with Coke? Who benefits from these things and I'm like, "It's the government."
adrienne: I don't know. Should we beat around that bush? You know what I'm saying? [inaudible 00:29:56] Anyway.
Andre: I love that. Okay. Adrienne, I have so enjoyed talking to you today. It has been such a pleasure.
adrienne: I've enjoyed talking with you, Andre, so much. Really. You're fantastic.
Andre: Oh, thank you. Where can people find you and keep in touch with you?
adrienne: Honestly, Instagram is my spot. Adrienne Maree Brown on Instagram. Maree is spelled with two Es because my parents took French in college. So that's a huge place that I post a ton of stuff. My website, adriennemareebrown.net, is another great place where folks can just find a ton of my writing. I link to a lot of things there. Those are basically the good places to look.
Andre: Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you again and we'll talk again some other time.
adrienne: I appreciate you, Andre. Peace.
Andre: Appreciate you, too. Peace.
Andre: Okay. So Alicia, first off, I am super sad that you didn't join the podcast when we had that interview with her.
Alicia: I, too, am sad.
Andre: That would have been so ... I had so many feelings about the fact that we'd already done this interview before you joined us. So I just have to know about the way that you in your own justice work, how have you related to having joy and pleasure as you go about fighting trauma and stuff?
Alicia: Yeah. When I think about my work, whether it be the stuff around justice seeking or even ministry, I like to make space for play. So I'm actually connected to this conference that's happening in a few weeks called Evolving Faith and I will be doing pastoral care with people of color who are going to be there. So one of the things specifically I've asked for are tools for play. Too oftentimes when we have conversations around things that are serious, when we have conversations about what inclusion looks like, what working for a better world looks like, what spiritual wellness or any number of things, or in a number of different ways means. We forget to play. We forget to do the things that give us joy.
Alicia: So as a part of my [inaudible 00:32:37], I've asked the organizers of that if we could have playing cards and dominoes because cards and dominoes allow for joy and uproarious laughter and competition, but beautiful competition to, I think, come forward. Some culturally specific games that I remember from my youth from other people coming from other countries introduced me to some things, so I've asked for games so we could play because I think that's a part of exploring spirituality. I think it's a part of exploring and committing to justice is making time for play.
Andre: That sounds awesome. That sounds like it's going to be really fun.
Alicia: I hope so. I mean, as we're making space for contemplation and consideration, which I think definitely spirituality work has, but also justice work has those moments. Taking time to find what gives us joy. I mean, joy is another way I think to conceive this concept of pleasure. Play is a big part of that.
Andre: Yeah. It reminds me of this quote from Rebecca Solnit from a book that pretty much saved my life where she says that, "Joy doesn't betray activism but sustains it." That has been a huge truth that I hold onto really dearly. So I know you have questions.
Andre: So what questions come up for you from this conversation?
Alicia: Oh my gosh, I have so many. [inaudible 00:34:15] I am a professional question asker. I love asking questions but one thing in particular that popped out at me and I've been sitting with this since listening to this interview is what is the relationship between pleasure, control, abundance and scarcity? I think the conversation that you and Adrienne had brought these things to mind and all these things I think live in tension with one another. I was really sitting here, pondering and it's like, "Hmm, how did these things work with each other, work alongside each other, disrupt one another?"
Alicia: This could be a good time to turn the questions to y'all, as our listeners. What are some things that you find pleasurable? Think about it. What are the things that give you joy, that make you happy, as it relates to life generally, but also as this work of anti-oppression and anti racism and an equity that you're working towards? What are the things that you find pleasurable here? I'm not going to leave you with just one question because that's not how I roll and y'all will find this over the coming weeks.
Alicia: We've got two more questions. One is going to be what do you need to do to interrogate and then speak to what gives you pleasure in life? How [inaudible 00:35:45] space for? It's not just what gives you pleasure, but how are you going to prioritize pleasure in your world? For our final question, what could it mean for you to lean into your longings as a means for personal and communal transformation? So as you identify what gives you pleasure and then you consider what you need to shift around in your world to make space for it, how is that going to lead to change for you and change for the folks around you because of that prioritizing of yes, your pleasure, but also the pleasure of the people who you surround yourself with and who you're in community with?
Notes: Thank you for listening today. If you like what you heard and you haven't already, please subscribe on your favorite pod catcher. Leaving a rating and review on Apple podcast also helps us get in more ears and minds. This podcast is made possible by our fantastic patrons. Thank you for being a part of our work at Hope and Hard pills. As usual, you'll get the uncut, extended version of the episode on Patreon. If you want to join the work in our Patreon community, just look us up at patreon.com/andrehenry. To go deeper, get subscribed to our email newsletter. Head over to andrerhenry.com and click join the movement where you'll get practical insight on anti-racism and social change every week and you'll never miss a new article, song or podcast episode. You can follow Andre Henry on Facebook and Instagram @theandrehenry. Connect with Alicia on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @aliciatcrosby and her website aliciatcrosby.com. That's all for this episode of the Hope and Hard Pills podcast. See you next time. Peace.
adrienne maree brown is author of Emergent Strategy: Shaping Change, Changing Worlds and Pleasure Activism: The Politics of Feeling Good, and the co-editor of Octavia’s Brood: Science Fiction from Social Justice Movements. She is a writer, social justice facilitator, pleasure activist, healer and doula living in Detroit. brown has been facilitating professionally for over fifteen years, and has worked with hundreds of organizations at all levels of scale including informal collectives, foundations, national networks and more. She is the cohost of the How to Survive the End of the World podcast. You can discover more about adrienne maree brown through her website and Instagram.
• What is the relationship between pleasure, control, abundance, and scarcity?
• What do you find pleasurable?
• How are you going to prioritize pleasure in your world?
• What could it mean for you to lean into your longings as a means for personal and communal transformation?
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Music: Supa Dred II (Wake Up) & It Doesn't Have To Be This Way by Andre Henry.